Cradle-snatchers not-so-anonymous

In our last visit to the Temper Clan, we saw dead children turning up at engagements,  pregnancies and births.  I can’t imagine this one will be terribly different.

Aww, doesn't she look content?
Aww, doesn't she look content?

The family’s first full on chav (see, the tracksuit!) Lawanda was about to give birth to her first child.  No picture of it, but she had a boy, who she called, in such a chavvy way Dashawn.  *Vomits at the spelling of Shawn*.  Here, Picard seems to be quite happy that his wife is in a lot of pain.

Gosh, that was fast.
Gosh, that was fast.

See what I mean about her being an elderly mother?  It was only a day or so before this that she gave birth to…er…Methusela, that’s right, Methusela!

Here's Johnny Methusela
Here's Johnny Methusela

As we can see, little Methusela had Alopecia totalis, probably contributed to by his Mother’s advanced age.  And the sparkly bits around the bed?  A product of Agnes’ fiddling around with that gun.

Child development?
Child development?

Jaclyn, being the self-serving, selfish, self-martyring anti-feminist that she is, she gave up working when she got married, so now she had all the time in the world to cram as much child development bullshit down the throat of her only son.

All by myyyyyyyysellllllllllf
All by myyyyyyyysellllllllllf

Here is the sophisticatedly named Dashawn having become a toddler.  I love the way that when babies become toddlers the adult sim just dumps them on the floor and then walks off.  Parenting fail?

TFFT
TFFT

Seriously, thank fuck for that.  Agnes was becoming a menace with that gun.

Where's my leg?!
Where's my leg?!

The sparkles have taken Methusela’s other leg!

Jazz hands!
Jazz hands!

Dashawn, don’t forget the eyes and teeth.  You’re not looking gay enough yet!

OMG!  He's only just become an adult?!
OMG! He's only just become an adult?!

I changed Adam’s hair (again) because he looked like a grandpa.  Now, having only just become an adult, he looks stunned.  That’s a long life ahead of you as a widower, dude.

Again again!
Again again!

While Adam and his elder-wife get cosy in the background, we are shown that Chavwanda is up the duff again.  Take note Jaclyn…she was young enough to have another kid.  You were already dried up by the time you got hitched.

How much longer can Jaclyn hold onto this mortal coil.  Most importantly, who will do the cleaning once she is gone?!

Dead children and marriage

Previously we saw the first wave of Temper boys die off, and Agnes turn into some crazy psycho science-cum-repo-man gun toting old bat.

Ignore that dead child, marry me!
Ignore that dead child, marry me!

Yes, because every proposal needs a creepy looking dead child hanging around just to set the mood.  Of course, Adam proposed to Jaclyn.  He doesn’t know just quite how old she is.

Formal wear?  What's formal wear?
Formal wear? What's formal wear?

When setting up this wedding party, I told everyone to come in formal wear.  Did they come in formal wear?  Did they bollocks!  Some of them are half naked, others are in their nightgowns, Adam is wearing his normal granddaddy crap, and Jaclyn seems to be wearing clothes sized for an 8 year old.  Classy.  At your own wedding.  Classy.

Obligatory vom shot
Obligatory vom shot

I had no idea (and neither did Adam!) just how old Jaclyn was when they were dating.  It wasn’t until they got married and she moved in that I found out she was in the final few days of adulthood.  Quick, get her up the duff!

I'm getting in on the act too!
I'm getting in on the act too!

Picard, feeling left out from all of the attention paid to Adam and his new but elderly wife, decided to propose to his girlfriend who was, in a very chavvy way, named Lawanda.  *Shudder*.  That’s the kind of name that women who go on Maury testing 300 different men for the paternity of their baby are called.  Allow me to digress for a second – I remember a Maury show where a woman had tested about 25 different men for the paternity of her baby (few years back now, we only get them in the UK when they’re about 2/3 years old), and she still couldn’t find him.  I have to ask…just how much sex do some whores people have?  Did this woman ever find the guy who was the father of her kid, or is she now onto number 1,793?

*Mr. Burns Voice*  Ehhhxcellent!
*Mr. Burns Voice* Ehhhxcellent!

She left parenthood a bit late, but at least she had a bun in the oven now.

Fuck me, your stomach rumbles like an earthquake!
Fuck me, your stomach rumbles like an earthquake!

Lawanda had a secret, but Jaclyn only thought her stomach was growling.

Gosh, you have manly hands.
Gosh, you have manly hands.

They didn’t want a public wedding, instead they got married while no-one was around.  Lawanda failed to tell anyone her secret.  Is she really a man?

No, not a man!
No, not a man! Myth Busted!

Her secret was…she ingested their wedding rings.  She was right next to the fridge too, couldn’t she have found anything tastier?

I'm spinning around
I'm spinning around (you know the song by that horrible little harpee, Kylie)

Can’t fucking stand that Kylie Minogue.  I don’t know why I included that picture.  Maybe I thought it looked like a mini tornado.

Yes, that bedspread is horrible.
Yes, that bedspread is horrible.

Here’s Jaclyn in labour.  This is the last picture too.  I think she had a boy, and I think it was called Methusela.  Arse, looking it up now, I realise I missed the ‘h’ from the end.  I have no idea if she went to the hospital either, but she probably should have done considering her advanced age.

Will Lawanda’s children be as chavvy as her?  Will they have rather more sophisticated names?

Around town in your underwear

Previously, Agnes had twins and Adelay’s nasty streak was beginning to show itself.

There's a half naked man!
There's a half naked man!

With Adelay now a teenager, his nasty streak can only get worse.  We all know just how evil teenagers can be.  Imagine aging up with a half naked man in front of you.  Mental damage, anyone?

Yes, this is perfectly normal.
Yes, this is perfectly normal.

I do wonder, is this the beginning of dementia in Agnes?  Unless of course it’s perfectly normal to wander around town in your soiled underwear.

Mmm, sparkles!
Mmm, sparkles!

This is most definately Adam.  I remember changing his  hair colour, and he was quite a nice boy.

Finally!
Finally!

Angus dies.  He went a little mad in his later years and grew a mohican.  Agnes seems to look disgusted, which isn’t a surprise because that red hue around Angus only appeared after he became the evil criminal overlord.  If you get to that level, then other sims, especially those who have the good trait look disgusted around the evil one, and sometimes even run away.  The guy on the right just seems fed up with Angus’ showmanism.

Another one bites the dust.
Another one bites the dust.

No idea who this is, but at least one person is sad about it.  That’s a surprise, Adelay doesn’t strike me as having any emotions.

Who?
Who?

Whose birthday?  Who are all of these people?!

Nooo!  Too young to die!
Nooo! Too young to die!

Despite being the youngest boy, Dulles was the next to die.  He had, however, achieved his lifetime wish of becoming a star news anchor.  It surprised me that he died so much younger despite achieving that.

A constant stream of death
A constant stream of death

And finally, Dallas dies.  He was a fairly nice guy, he became a world renowned surgeon and worked hard.  One person was sad at his passing.

Repo-Agnes?
Repo-Agnes?

Agnes reached the top of the Science Career, and one day came home with this gun.  I thought she was going to reposess her own items.  No, instead she did experiments on different items with…variable effects.

Kissy Kissy Grandpa!
Kissy Kissy Grandpa!

When The Boss saw this going on, he said “Oh, is she out with her granddad?”  No dear, she’s not.  She was out with Adam, who was a Young Adult by this point.  Perhaps the most worrying part, is that this woman (Jaclyn) is the family maid!

Here we go again

Last time we saw the first Temper grandchild born, but it came after both Lana and Gerrard were already dead.  Would they have approved of their only daughter, Agnes, not being married to the father of her children?

Yes, that’s right, I said children.

Yep, childREN
Yep, childREN

Now does it make sense why I said children?

Oh, so quick.
Oh, so quick.

Her first one becomes a toddler, and now I remember his bloody name. He was called Adelay.  I heard the name on Law and Order (Criminal In A Tent Intent, I believe), I have no idea if it is spelt correctly, but it satisfied a need for a name.

Shut up!
Shut up!

This must be like her Mother’s experience, where the unborn child wants the screaming little brat to shut the hell up.

Another boy!
Another boy!

Such a serious shortage of girls in this family.

Sorry for the interruption
Sorry for the interruption

You see, this might not look exceptional, but let me tell you, it is.  She had that first kid.  Then she wandered off to the bathroom, used the toilet, and had a second kid.  Yeah, twin boys.  Adam and Picard.  He was called Picard because I had recently heard the Star Trek Rap over at Those Aren’t Muskets!.

One of two?
One of two?

I’m assuming this is one of the two twins growing up.  Whatever.  It looks evil.  Story of that family I guess.

Don't look now, but your Uncle's looking at pr0n!
Don't look now, but your Uncle's looking at pr0n!

I guess this is Adelay growing up.  He does become an evil little shit, eventually.  He has a nasty streak.  Don’t be fooled by the innocent look.  That pr0n on the PC behind is what does it.

The Evil Twin
The Evil Twin

He looks so much like his older brother.  Evil and…urgh.  I eventually take to changing their hair colour as children so that I can tell them apart.

The drugged-up twin
The drugged-up twin

He’s got to be smoking something.  And the person in the background who seems to be talking about a career in ticket scalping, can’t be doing any good for these young minds.

Hahahahah.  You old hag!
Hahahahah. You old hag!

See what I mean about Adelay’s nasty streak?  When his Mother entered her dotage, he did nothing but point and laugh at her.  She wasn’t going to have an easy time with him.

The first coveted grandchild

Before this, we saw the Temper family lose some much loved members.  I’m sure they’ll get over it.

Dulles, is that really your type?
Dulles, is that really your type?

Dulles grew up very well, in fact out of the five only really he and Agnes were nice guys.  I believe he’s asking this heffalump lady if she sits behind a desk all day, because that sure is what her arse suggests.

I just knew it!
I just knew it!

I knew he would be gay.  Angus is gay.  Or at least he looks it here.

Suddenly this salad doesn't taste so good.
Suddenly this salad doesn't taste so good.

As Angus was an evil criminal, he couldn’t let this get out.  All the better that the guy he’s…slobbering over is a work colleague.

She's a laydee!
She's a laydee!

Agnes becomes a fully fledged laydee.

Where'd he come from?
Where'd he come from?

Suddenly, out of nowhere she had a boyfriend, and she’s going to shag him.  How did that happen?  I can’t even remember how she met him – Guiessepe – I guess at work?  She works in the Science career, as her white coat suggests.

Mmm, yummy.
Mmm, yummy.

Vomitting, and stinky.  Could it get much worse?  She works in the Science career, she should know all about what happens when a man and woman who love each other very much decide to woohoo.

One Zimmerframe please.
One Zimmerframe please.

Angus’ life was pretty uneventful apart from becoming the evil overlord of the crime world.  He became an elder while out late one night.

OMG!  Bed!
OMG! Bed!

You see, Agnes was destined to be a single mother.  Giuseppe, or however the fuck you spell his name, didn’t live with them (not really enough room).  She didn’t seem phased about that at all, in fact she didn’t roll the want to marry him or move in with him.

Giving birth alone
Giving birth alone

She took herself off to the hospital and gave birth alone.  No – one else was interested enough to go with her.  She had a boy, and I have no idea what I called him!

Yeah, that won't mentally scar the kid at all.
Yeah, that won't mentally scar the kid at all.

Neither Lana nor Gerrard lived long enough to see their grandchild.  What’s the best way to tackle this?  That’s right, come back from the dead and scare the shit out of that kid.  Always the measured reaction.  Always.

Fear is a place

Previously, we saw Lana have her last child and only girl.  We also saw her become an elder and her boys begin to age up.  They’re now at ages where they can understand just what is going on around them, and it’s not always good.

Ooo, look at me!
Ooo, look at me!

Yanno, I’m thinking that this is Angus becoming a Young Adult.  I could be wrong though.  He’s flanked by his two brothers, the one on the right who looks uber-gay in his leather jacket, and the one on the left (I’m thinking he’s Dallas, because Dallas wore exactly the same clothes into his elder years) looks like a grandpa.

F.E.A.R Alma!
F.E.A.R Alma!

Someone else grows up.  However, I am more interested in Agnes in the background.  Is it just me, or does she look like Alma from Fear?

Agnes Vs Alma, which evil one would win?
Agnes Vs Alma, which evil one would win?

See, there is a similarity.  Anyway, I digress.

Agnes doesn't lose her chub
Agnes doesn't lose her chub

In what is rather the surprise, Agnes doesn’t lose her chub when she becomes a teenager.  She does however look rather more normal less evil.

There's a time to live and a time to die
There's a time to live and a time to die

My first Sims 3 death.  Of course it was going to be Gerrard.  Out of all of the mourners, Lana looks the least bothered.  That said, towards the end their relationship wasn’t so hot.  Mostly because they never woohooed after the last kid was born, and having five drains on your resources took up a lot of time for cooking and cleaning, and being that subservient wife which society expects.

Wonder what my inheritence will be?
Wonder what my inheritence will be?

While all of the others bawl their eyes out, the one on the right is wondering how much he will inherit.  And then, much to my surprise I see that life insurance money has been removed from The Sims 3.

Hi Dad!
Hi Dad!

No idea which kid this is (story of my playing!), but he meets up with his Father.  I have a funny feeling that I didn’t bother with any photos of it, but I got one of them to resurrect Gerrard at the Science Facility.  It didn’t quite work apparently, and Gerrard moved back into the family home as a ghost.  He didn’t get on with Lana, or the others too well, so he moved out and ended up having about three or four more kids with some random woman from the town.

I DON'T LIKE SPARKLES!
I DON'T LIKE SPARKLES!

This one doesn’t like sparkles.  I assume he’s becoming a young adult or an adult or something.

That book was going to be crap anyway.
That book was going to be crap anyway.

It was time for the subservient pathetic little wife matriarch to die too.  The caption for this picture comes from some of the books they read (and write for that matter).  Aren’t the names just…crap?  Seriously, “A Magnetic Attraction”, “Exit at Powell”…so in a bid to be anti-sims 3 crap book names, much later in the game I rejigged one of the suggested names from “Mr. Goss Goes To Town”, to “Mr. Homo Goes To Homoland”.

Oooh, a finger!
Oooh, a finger!

Yes dear, it’s your finger.  You now have enough self-awareness to realise that you’ve got two hands full of them!

Lick those sparkles
Lick those sparkles

With a face full of sparkles, I have no idea which one this is.  However, I do know that both Angus and Magnus were in the Criminal Career and it looks like they might be near that building.  Both of them had the evil trait so I can see them hating the sparkles.

Will the family make it through without their rather, er, strange parents?  Will Angus and Magnus’ evil sides cancel each other out?  Will Agnes do as her mother did and be little more than just a bitch who has litter after litter of puppies children?

It’s the final countdown

Last time, with the Temper Clan quickly growing up and turning into textbook murderers, we saw that Lana was pregnant for the fifth time, and that Gerrard was an old man.

Dude, where's my chin?
Dude, where's my chin?

This is the first teenager of the family, must be Angus then.  He looks…malformed.  Where’s his chin?  Don’t get too excited Lana, you might just drop that sprog!

What a gay day!
What a gay day!

I have no idea which kid this is, but it must be the first (of many?) not-so-closeted homosexuals judging by his very…er, camp pose.

The baby wants out
The baby wants out

The unborn one heard the other little oik screaming and was giving Lana a good kicking to get it to shut the fuck up.

Passed on that neurosis by any chance?
Passed on that neurosis by any chance?

Everyone else seems to have split, leaving just Lana and one of her many children.  It would appear that one is also rather neurotic based on his facial expression.  Calm down dear, she’s just having a kid.

Gurning 101
Gurning 101

Couldn’t get to the hospital in time, but OMG!  It’s a girl!  Being ever inventive with names she was called Agnes.  Lana looks unimpressed.  Unimpressed enough to gurn.

All dried up
All dried up

With her childbearing days now behind her, Lana was all dried up.  How would such an oldie cope with a screaming kid?

They grow up so fast
They grow up so fast

This is Agnes, having become a toddler.  This is Gerrard, with Alzheimer’s, wondering what the fuck is going on.  Where did that kid come from?!

You have got to be kidding me!
You have got to be kidding me!

I think this kid knew he was being brought up in a, what shall we call it, odd different family, but it was soul-destroyingly confirmed to him when he saw his Father beating a gas cooker with a hammer.  Yes, that’s what every sensible adult does.

Eww.  Fashion sense = none.
Eww. Fashion sense = none.

If I grew into a teenager and was wearing not only an OAP’s dressing gown, but also bunny rabbit slippers, I’d be pretty disgusted with myself too.

Emo, Emo Kid!
Emo, Emo Kid!

Agnes has problems.  She’s the first Emo of The Sims 3, and she’s started early.

So, Lana managed to produce a girl, finally.  Will being the youngest of them all detriment Agnes’ development?  Is she really an Emo?  Will all of the boys be gay?  How much longer do Gerrard and Lana have on earth?

She eats children for breakfast

When we were last with the Temper Clan, I believe we left them with some kid on the floor.  Oh yes, Dallas had just become a toddler.  And an ugly one at that.

Those dead, dead eyes
Those dead, dead eyes

This is Angus who has just become a child.  Look deep into those dead, dead eyes.  He looks as though he could grow up to be a murderer.  If it were possible in the game it wouldn’t surprise me.  His Father pays no attention to him, and his Mother is Neurotic at the same time as being family orientated.  How does that work?  Does that even work?!  Is it any wonder that all of their children constantly rolled the want to get attention from their parents?

I'm so ronery!
I'm so ronery!

As Kim Jong-Il sang in Team America, this kid (who?!  This feels a little out of sequence?) is so ronery.  Wouldn’t you be if your mother was permanently disgusted at your existence?

Here we go again...
Here we go again...

Being pregnant is yawn inducing, isn’t it Lana?  Bringing another kid into this trainwreck of a neglectful family.

Already?  Please!
Already? Please!

I guess nothing interesting happened between the previous photos, as this is the latest one where she has another episode of bad gas.

More dead eyes
More dead eyes

You might have guessed from the positioning, everyone sleeps in the same room.  It would appear that she had another kid (Magnus?  No, not Magnus, I must have missed him out.  Rather she had Dulles, number four in that bad gas photo), then there’s Angus in bed, and Dallas has just become a child.  I put money on murderer for him too.

Cradle snatcher!
Cradle snatcher!

Gerrard was a little older than you’d think for.  In truth, I didn’t understand the differences between Young Adult and Adult when I was creating the family, so I made them both adults, thus shortening their time in their Simlives.  Lana seems to be rather younger than him.

She's having a bed!
She's having a bed!

It would appear that she’s having a bed this time round.  I guess this proves that not only is their house too small, but that Gerrard still has it.  This is kid number five.  Yeah, I think.

Slightly Singed
Slightly Singed

Sometimes, when they’re in the Science career track there is an explosion at the facility.  They then return home in only their underwear and with a negative moodlet of “Slightly Singed”.  This happened to Gerrard.  He looks a little sad.

OMG!  I have self-awareness!
OMG! I have self-awareness!

This must be Dulles becoming a toddler.  He looks shocked.  Maybe he’s more taken with the Twilight-esq sparkles?  Maybe he’s gay?

Yeah, I could eat a kid right now
Yeah, I could eat a kid right now

This must be Angus when he is about to be come a teenager.  Lana is so hungry she could eat him at the moment.  Her and her chav fashion statement of tracksuit bottoms.  Angus is rather taken by Lana’s fat arse abdomen – that can only mean one thing…and it’s not good.

Is Lana going to have another boy, to make a set of five?  Will she ignore the latest kid just as much?  Maybe she’ll get a job?  Will she ever lose her baby weight or will she be like many mothers, fat and washed up?

Temper Temper!

So last time we met Lana and Gerrard Temper.  A neurotic, but family orientated woman.  Good way to be.  Reminds me of my Mother-In-Law.  When we left she was just waddling her fat, unattractive pregnant arse into hospital in order to give birth.

Lana and Angus
Lana and Angus

So she had a boy, named Angus.  Exciting huh?  It was my first experience of a sim having a kid, so it was quite fun when they went to the hospital.  I was a little disappointed that there was no screaming about how much she hated her Husband for doing this to her – because of course, she’s not complicit in it at all.

Showing your true colours now
Showing your true colours now

Now Lana and Gerrard’s true colours begin to come out.  He just stands around which seems to be the story of his freaking life.  And Lana?  Well, she’s just…she looks like she just sniffed a turd.  It’s a baby.  It cries.  Get over yourself.

That's the right reaction
That's the right reaction

Oh, now I see why he just looks at babies.  Their crying makes him vomit.  I feel your pain Gerrard, children do much the same to me.

Who the hell's that?!
Who the hell's that?!

Before I bloody well knew it, Angus was growing into a toddler.  However, I’m more concerned about that random blonde woman who has just appeared out of nowhere.  She looks like she’s stuck in the 1960s.

That your fat, pregnant arse
That was your fat, pregnant arse

It would appear that she was pregnant again.  Shock horror.  They’re just like fundamentalist Christians.  But look at that toilet!  That would be the weight of her fat, unattractive pregnant arse damaging the toilet.  Undoubtedly she’s now got a negative moodlet because the room looks bad, even though she caused the mess.  Seriously, toilets block so much in The Sims.  It doesn’t happen that often in real life!

Bad gas
Bad gas

It looks like Lana is having a moment of bad gas.  Maybe it was the dodgy sushi last night.

Oh, that was some REALLY bad gas
Oh, that was some REALLY bad gas

That must have been particularly bad gas.  Who knew that sushi could create something like that?  This episode of bad gas was called Dallas.

Oh please, that's just...nasty!
Oh please, that's just...nasty!

Was that also Lana’s fat, unattractive pregnant arse causing that problem?

Warning: Ugly people may cause unexpected pain
Warning: Ugly people may cause unexpected pain

Yeah, I think that the toddlers in The Sims 3 all look pretty evil too.  It’s no surprise that it’s giving you some pretty severe idiopathic pain.  Angus did look like the devil incarnate.

Who shot JR?
Who shot JR?

This is Dallas, who has just become a toddler.  He’s another evil looking little oik.  Urg.  Now, I’m assuming that she had another kid from the previous picture.  I don’t seem to have a picture with the new one, but it was called Magnus.

I happen to think that Lana is doing pretty well despite her neurotic and light-sleeper traits.  Gerrard just seems to be completely passive.  However, how did they manage to create such evil looking children?!  It’s something in the eyes that make them look evil.  In fact, two of them eventually develop the Evil trait.  Living up to their looks I suppose.

Familial Adventures

So, I got The Sims 3 on the day that it came out.  Pretty much.  I think.  And since then, apart from the two weeks after leaving hospital where I felt like crap, I’ve played almost every day, for many hours.  And I love it.  One of the things I’m most taken with is the way that the snapshots look outside of the game.  So here’s the story of a family that I created, and have obsessively played.  Only ten pictures per post at the moment, as they are rather big.

The Temper Family.
The Temper family started out as Lana and Gerrard Temper.  I gave them some traits that I knew would conflict with what I was going to make them do.  I believe that Lana was Neurotic and a Light Sleeper.  Mother material right there.  I can’t remember what Gerrard was, but he seemed pretty cool the whole time he was alive.

Screenshot-5
OMG?! Where does it go?!

Gerrard must have found where it went, because she’s chucking up now.

So that's what happens when you put that in there!
So that's what happens when you put that in there!

As you can see, they don’t have a lot in their house.  They were pretty poor.

Suspicions are confirmed
Suspicions are confirmed

So she IS pregnant, and it wasn’t just some off food.

Neurosis coming to the fore!
Neurosis coming to the fore!

After a moment of maternity, her neurosis kicks in and she has a major hissy fit at being pregnant.  Yep.  Exactly the reason I made her neurotic.  I knew it would be funny to watch.

I'm pregnant, get me out of here.
I'm pregnant, get me out of here.

She had another moment of neurosis and demanded to get out of the house otherwise she would go mad.  So I sent her out to buy a pregnancy book, which she decided to read immediately.

Is she pregnant, or just fat?
Is she pregnant, or just fat?

Because, if she’s pregnant, then she must be a right heffalump normally!

That would be your fat ass that did that?
That would be your fat ass that did that?

Neurotic sims go wacko when something breaks.  She managed to clog the toilet.  She should go little and often then, rather than saving it up.

No, it doesn't speak yet...
No, it doesn't speak yet...

Geez, just how smart are these guys?

OMG!  It's Time!  I'm going to flail!
OMG! It's Time! I'm going to flail!

One of the things that I particularly like about The Sims 3 is how the women gradually get bigger during pregnancy rather than at set times over three days.  And then the time comes.  And this was the first time for Lana and me in The Sims 3.  Gerrard has decided that he’s just going to flail and panic.

Mmm, Cucumber
Mmm, Cucumber

I think she’d rather be at the spa.  The option came up to take her to the Hospital, so I got her loyal husband to do just that.  I was excited.  She seems more interested in going to the spa.  Mother material, eh?